o


It's a hobby.


Regarding Landis "cleaning up baseball", that is a fallacy that is greatly exaggerated, and I'll explain why ......

Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were permitted by Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis to resign from their player-manager posts near the end of the 1926 season after former pitcher Dutch Leonard charged that Cobb, Speaker, and Smoky Joe Wood had joined him just before the 1919 World Series in betting on a game they all knew was fixed. Leonard presented letters and other documents to Commissioner Landis and AL President Ban Johnson, and Johnson thought that they would be so potentially damaging to baseball in the wake of the Black Sox scandal that he paid Leonard $20,000 to have them suppressed. Landis, who proposed to have a "zero tolerance policy" when he was hired as the Commissioner of MLB in direct response to the Black Sox scandal, did everything that he could to cover up and gloss over the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker/Smoky Joe Wood incident for fear that the American public would be completely disillusioned about the authenticity of the game, because it would have been the second major game-fixing scandal in the same time period of time.

So while Landis is in Baseball Hall-of-Fame for allegedly cleaning up baseball, the fact of the matter was that was a racist, bigoted grandstander who gets far more credit than he actually deserves in regard to his overall legacy in the history of professional baseball.

o

I agree with you on the reality of Landis. Baseball was chock full of racist bigots back in the early 20th century (as was the whole damn country). He changed the public perception of baseball which was worth something. Cool hobby by the way.

Interesting info C&O and really cool story about your conversation w/ Gardner Stern. Definitely really nice of him to share his story w/ you. Unfortunately that probably wouldn't happen today due to all of the scam and spam calls everyone gets.

I knew that Buck Weaver didn't take the bribe and played to win, but that he was banned w/ his teammates under the pretense that he knew about the fix and didn't turn them in. Also, I knew that there's a lot of controversy on whether Sholess Joe threw games or not and that he overall played well, but I didn't know he played that well.


Interesting. I'll have to read up on the Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker incident.

And Landis may have been a total asshole and gets too much credit, but I think he definitely deserves at least some credit for saving baseball. At least from my understanding the Black Sox had gotten away w/ the whole thing scott free until Landis stepped in and laid down the hammer. If he (or perhaps someone else) had not done this then the flood gates would have been wide open for fixing games, which IMO would have ended baseball.

Anyway, interesting stuff. I'll definitely do some more reading on this as it's piqued my interest. Also, there's a historical walking tour in downtown Cincy on the 1919 World Series I had forgotten about until our conversation here. I'll have to plan on going on it here in the spring or summer.

o


Landis was not the reason why the Black Sox avoided getting away with the fix. The story went viral/nationwide in late September of 1920. With only 3 games left to be played in the regular season, Charlie Comiskey suspended all 8 players, pending further investigation. Landis was not in the picture at all until well after that ...... in other words, the genie was already out of the bottle, action had already been taken against the 8 accused players, and Landis had nothing to do with it.

The MLB owners, fearing an extremely damaging blow to baseball because of the fix, hired Landis after the fact (after the fix had been exposed, and action had been taken against the 8 accused players) in order to try to give some credibility to the game. After the 8 accused players were exonerated in a court of law in 1921, Landis banned them all from MLB for life.

Landis' inaction and willful ignorance of the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker fixing incident completely belies the notion that he banned the 8 Black Sox players to preserve the moral integrity of the game ...... it was nothing more than Landis grandstanding after the fact, and he cared not about the integrity of the game, but rather was doing what was expedient at the time.




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In regard to the possibility of baseball not surviving had the 8 accused White Sox players not been banned, it is highly unlikely that baseball would have met its end had they not been banned ...... basketball survived the Tim Donaghy scandal (a referee who was actively fixing games with his officiating because he bet on them) without blinking. Since then, numerous basketball players and coaches have all been indicted for gambling on games that they were playing in and coaching in as well (Terry Rozier, Chauncey Billups, and Damon Jones, etc), and the game is still going strong, and attendance and TV ratings haven't missed a beat ...... Americans love their sports, and gambling, fixing games, and/or other ridiculousness such as the NFL rule changes neutering defenses and vaulting quarterbacks into putting up statistics that resemble a pinball game gone wild won't stop them from coming through the gates by the thousands, and tuning in on their TV sets by the millions.

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C&O You obviously know so much more about this than I do. Ive read a couple of books about the era. Two questions for you. I agree he did very little but how important was the public perception that he totally cleaned up baseball (at least the vast general public). Second question is what you think of Honus Wagner? I understand this is a Colt board but you are the first person Ive come across that seems interested in prewar sports. Apologize for this to you Freaks

You can clean up the game without doing it on the front page of the New York Herald Tribune or the Baltimore Sun. Both Cobb and Speaker were successful managers who, in the prime of their careers, were forced out, never to return to the game.

As far as making the Hall because of his reputation for cleaning up the game, it’s more likely he made it because he was the commish. Four of the first 5 commissioners made it.

Expecting Landis to take action before the trial was unreasonable. He was a Federal judge and would have been hesitant to make any move that might taint a trial.

Within hours of the verdict, he announced the ban.

o


I never said or insinuated that Landis should have taken action before he was called in by the owners. I said that he was called in AFTER action had already been taken (Comiskey banned the 8 players in September of 1920, which was long before Landis was called in.) Landis was called in strictly for cosmetic purposes, to give the illusion that he was cleaning up baseball. And if you read my previous posts, you would see that there was irrefutable proof that he intentionally ignored the Ty Cobb-Tris Speaker game-fixing incident, an incident that literally had written proof of the fix. Kennesaw Landis was as phony and as disingenuous as any person associated with the crookedness of baseball at that time.

Also, if you know anything about Landis as a Federal Judge, you would know that he was known for grandstanding with ridiculous verdicts that he knew would be overturned (such as the 1907 Standard Oil case, which was overturned in 1908.) The man was as phony, transparent, and as bigoted as they come.

o

C&O Man life just isn't fair in the least. While alive anyway. I think folks like you are at least changing the narrative on these people now. What you have said jibes and clarifies what I have read. To bad you don't live in Arizona.

This is what I was getting at. You obviously are much more knowledgeable on the subject than I am so please correct me if I'm wrong, but since the courts found them not guilty wouldn't the Black Sox players have been allowed to continue playing if Landis had not have banned them? Obviously allowing them back on the field would have been extremely detrimental to the game.

Like Kray I think you're missing some nuance here. Here's a summary I found in this ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1233060.html

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Tim Donaghy is banned for life from the NBA, and Rozier, Billups, and Jones are all suspended indefinitely and will likely be banned as well if found guilty. Pretty sure the NBA would take a HUGE hit if they were all allowed back into the league right now.

The point I was making is that if the Black Sox players would have been allowed to remain playing with only a minor tap on the wrist then there would have been nothing to prevent Arnold Rothstein or someone like him from fixing 1921 World Series, or the '22 Series, and on and on and on. Maybe someone else would have banned the players as well or the players would have been black listed, but since Landis is the one who banned them IMO you have to give him credit for it.

o


Yes, they would have been allowed to continue to play ....... and the game would have survived and even thrived, with or without them.

If you ever saw the movie "Quiz Show" (or read books on the subject) one poignant point of the movie is when Martin Scorsese's character (Martin Rittenhome, top executive of the Geritol company) tells a disillusioned Richard Goodwin that the public has a short memory, but the networks never forget. While Goodwin was trying to assert that the television careers of Dan Enright, Martin Freedman, and Jack Barry were over due to their involvement in the fixing of game shows, Scorsese/Rittenhome was predicting that they would all be back ....... and they were ...... in fact, both Jack Barry and Dan Enright later became multimillionaires in the early 1970's with a game show called Joker's Wild ...... not only were they back in television, but they were specifically back with (of all things) another game show.

The same is true of baseball, basketball, boxing, or any other major sport regarding scandals ...... if any of those players and/or coaches who are currently accused of wrongdoing/gambling on games ever came back to the NBA based on even the slightest presumption of innocence, the NBA would not cease to exist, or even be huirt at the box office ....... as I said before, the American public loves their sports, and no amount of scandal ...... not even a continuous, ongoing scandal, like what is happening in basketball ...... is going to drive them away.

Pete Rose admitted to betting on Reds games WHILE he was still playing for and managing the Reds, and there were still millions of fans who were clamoring for him to be inducted into the Hall-of-Fame, right up until the day that he died.

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That article is not representing what actually happened.

Of course Cobb would say that he was misunderstood. Pete Rose also denied any wrong-doing along with almost every person that has ever gone to jail.

More significantly, Landis' behavior in regard to his exoneration of/ignoring the Cobb and Speaker game-fixing was completely hypocritical in regard to his treatment of the Black Sox. Landis banned the 8 White Sox players, in spite of them being found not guilty in a court of law ....... essentially saying that the Buck stops here, and nobody, not even a court of law, will transcend what I view to be justice and fairness ...... allowing Cobb and Speaker to remain in the game because they had not been found guilty without he himself (Landis) digging deeper into the case was passing the buck, and copping out. Furthermore, when he was later confronted about his inaction in regard to the Cobb/Speaker incident, he said that that incident occurred before was the commissioner (the Cobb-Speaker fixed games occurred in September of 1919), and so he felt that it was not his territory to act in a judgmental manner ...... which completely belies not only his attitude about the swift and permanent action that he took against the Black Sox (which also occurred before he was the commissioner), but also his entire career as a Federal Judge when he would hand ridiculous down fines and judgements that he knew would be overturned.

If you want to believe that Kenesaw Landis was at all credible in regard to either his career as a Federal Judge or as the Commissioner of MLB, you can ...... I happen to know, through extensive research, that nothing could be further from the truth.

As Benjamin Disraeli once said, "Innocence is precious, but truth is better." ...... I choose to take solace in the latter.

o

My understanding is that Cobb and Speaker didn’t ever throw a game, they just bet on one they believed was fixed.

As far as ignoring it, the fact is that after the scandal came to Landis’s attention, neither man ever managed another game.

And, I’m just curious; what could Landis have done differently in the Black Sox scandal?

o


Cobb and Speaker threw a game, they did not just bet on them.

Regarding the Black Sox, Landis should not have banned Buck Weaver, as Weaver specifically asked for a separate trial from his teammates, and was denied. Weaver appealed his banning every year until the day that he died in 1956, and Landis refused to accept the fact that Weaver played to the best of his abilities and never took a dime in regard to the fix ...... the notion that Weaver necessarily should have "promptly told his ball club about it" completely belies and is in direct contradiction to his extremely lax, dismissing of the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker game-fixing incident, an incident of which there was documentation that they both threw a game and bet on games ...... with the Black Sox, Landis' blanket/extreme decision to ban each and every one of them, regardless of the fact that they were all exonerated in a court of law, and regardless of the fact that 2 of the players played to the best of their abilities (Weaver and Jackson), set the precedent that he was to be a "No nonsense/no tolerance" commissioner, and that he would deal with any and all accusations of fixing and betting on games harshly and firmly, with no wiggle room for any kind of nuance.


Landis' milquetoast, nonchalant handling of the Cobb/Speaker incident, particularly his statement that he was dropping the case "because it happened before he was commissioner," completely belies his handling of the Black Sox situation (particularly in the case of Buck Weaver), which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that his interest first and foremost was grandstanding and expedience, not to rid the game of corruption.

o

Back to our Landis/Cobb/Speaker/Black Sox Debate. I found this article today that I thought was a good read on the Cobb/Speaker controversy:

https://www.vintagedetroit.com/gambl...oybpgbA-jQo9sK

Per this article Cobb and Speaker along w/ Leonard and Wood did indeed fix the game in question; however, the author does state that late season fixes after the pennant was decided were pretty common back then, Especially on the final day of the season:

I could definitely see this playing out where Landis saw the Cobb/Speaker game as the tip of the iceberg, so decided it best to keep the punishment in house (Cobb and Speaker were both let go from their respective teams in 1926 and never rehired as managers) and then write into the MLB bylaws the penatlies for gambling on the game. Pure speculation on my part, but IMO not unreasonable at all. And it aligns w/ the final tidbit from the article I posted yesterday as from what I know about Cobb he would definitely be the type that if he's going down he's taking the ship with him:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXX

I fully agree that Buck Weaver got the shaft in the deal. IMO he should have been suspended, possibly up to a year, but a lifetime ban was way overkill for him since he did not take the bribe or throw games. Jackson is more of a gray area, but since he accepted the bribe (which he admitted to doing) I don't think his ban was necessarily unfair.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the trial a complete sham? To my knowledge the evidence was pretty overwhelming that the players on trial had accepted bribes and fixed the Series, which included multiple players confessing to it during their grand jury trial. Hell Eddie Cicotte admitted to hitting the Reds lead off batter in game 1 to signal that the fix was on.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here. I don't think there's any question the game would have lost a lot of credibility and fans if the Black Sox players would have been allowed back on the field (with maybe the exception of Weaver). I also believe that if no strong deterrent had been put in place after the scandal then flood gates would have been wide open for more and more fixing scandals in games that actually mattered which very well could have damaged the game's credibility for good.

I have no idea about Landis' record as a judge, so I'll take your word on it. Also, I don't think he was baseball's white knight, but I do believe he had a pretty large impact on cleaning the game up which you're shortchanging. So we'll probably just have to agree to disagree there as well.

Damn, this thread has gone off the rails. Movie it to a other forum.

Well unfortunately we have nothing better to talk about :eek:

o


The trial was a sham.

3 signed confessions were mysteriously lost.

2 of the confessions were legitimate (Cicotte and Williams) while the 3rd "confession" was not (Joe Jackson) ...... Jackson could not read and write, and was coerced into signing the confession with an X mark. Jackson's "confession" was completely written out for him in advance.

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This is what make Landis a complete phony, hypocrite, and why he deserves no credit for allegedly "cleaning up baseball."

With the Black Sox, Landis made it abundantly clear, with no wiggle room whatsoever, not even for Buck Weaver and Joe Jackson who both played to the best of their abilities, that any type of fixing and/or gambling would not be tolerated, and that they would never play professional baseball ever again.

But when he had hard evidence of other games being fixed (and gambled on), and with Ty Cobb asserting that if he went down he would tell all and bring many others down with him, Landis conveniently acted like a big pussy, and ignored it ........ Therefore, Landis DID NOT clean up baseball ...... he carefully and expediently cherry-picked which scandal (and which players) that he would come down hard on, and when an even bigger mess was put on his desk, he ignored it ....... that was nothing short of cowardly and disingenuous, and it absolutely drives home the point that I have been making about him all along. If Ty Cobb had hard evidence of 30 or 40 other players fixing games, and if Landis TRULY wanted to clean up the game and give it credibility, then Landis would have and should have dealt with each and every one of those players and banned them all for life, just like he did with the Black Sox ........ but he didn't do that, therefore her was a complete hypocrite, therefore he did not "clean up" baseball, and he deserves no credit other than coming along after the fact and conveniently dealing with only what he chose to deal with.

o

And it continues!

Not my point. Nobody cares whatever happened a century ago that is not relevant to a topic that this forum is meant to discuss.

To be fair there are at least 4 regular posters who have been discussing this over the past couple of days. But if you really want I suppose we can go back to arguing over whether Ballard should have been fired or not.

I don't know where to take this. Nothing new Colt to talk about, unless you got something. I'm sick of arguing about Ballard, don't give a shit about the playoffs and find it fascinating what other people have become experts at.

I started up a new thread on the General Discussion board.

https://www.coltfreaks.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=207595

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I know what your point was.

I was making a joke with a meaningless, Ballard-related statement because of the thread derailment.

o

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