They cheated as well, so they're not a franchise I'd model after, unless you're willing to engage in constant, rampant cheating. I think I'd model after KC, which just so happens to be the team from which Ballard came to the Colts. What does KC do? Draft well, retain their best players, and take calculated risks to make their team better. What does Ballard do? Draft well, retain his best players, and take calculated risks to make his team better.

Ballard may have been a part of that organization but it’s stretching it to suggest there is any connection in methods. Hell the GM that Ballard worked for was fired 7 years ago. Ballard’s history and his comments say he wouldn’t have traded up for Mahomes. He wouldn’t have traded Hill. He wouldn’t have traded Sneed. He wouldn’t have aggressively revamped their offensive line using free agency and trades along with the draft to get there. Drafting good is the only common point between them. KC has been significantly more aggressive in their moves than the Colts have been. But yes, Ballard worked there 8 yrs ago.

Ballard's history of making aggressive moves to fill the QB position indicates to you that he wouldn't have traded up for Mahomes? That's an interesting interpretation of events, especially considering it was his subordinate in the KC front office who ended up doing it. Ballard has been working from a different position than KC has for the last half decade, which is why the same process has led to different types of moves. Had Ballard had the franchise QB he was hired in with all along, he likely would be making similar moves to what the Chiefs have done over the last several years. Since he's had to scramble to fill the QB position, his moves have looked different, but the pattern is the same.

It was Dorsey in KC who traded up for Mahomes. Also the man who hired Ballard in KC. He was Ballard’s superior not subordinate. He was fired that season. Maybe that’s what Ballard often referred to when cautioning against trading up for a QB, telling the media how he’d be gone if the guy didn’t work out. Apparently we have different views on what aggressive is because Ballard’s QB search to me was very cautious. In no move did he trade the resources KC gave up to get Mahomes. Coincidentally he passed on Stafford who was traded for a similar package as to what KC traded for Mahomes. A more known quality at the time than Mahomes was coming out of the draft and also known as a safer option than Wentz when they were traded. But sure, let’s overlook that Ballard never traded up for a QB, has never traded multiple firsts for anyone, his passing on Stafford because of price, his pushing back on the media’s questions on the need to trade up and say he would have done it because he once worked for the man who did it. Don’t look at Dorsey’s history in Cleveland though, because it looks nothing like Ballard’s either. Perhaps Ballard has saw his mentor be canned in two jobs while be aggressive? Maybe that’s what he was referring to when telling the media why he DIDN’T trade up for a QB?

Skip all of that though and at least we can agree that Ballard has not yet made moves similar to KC since Mahomes was drafted and his mentor fired. Now again because he worked there you think it’s obvious he will do it once he has his franchise QB. This is getting to why I ask the question. Ballard fans constantly move the goal posts, so I try to pin them down. We agree that he hasn’t done it yet, we disagree that he will start doing it. At least now I have an expected timeline in place for your expectations- when he knows he has his franchise QB. We’ll see.

You named five players over the course of 20 years for them, but we have had Ballard for just 7. Further, Ballard has added as many vets via trade or free agency as they did. So, you have to ask yourself what the difference is. It is having the franchise QB in place.

I did not say that at all. Pass rush is important. Ballard has been pursuing one for a while. It seems they are valued because they do not grow on trees. If they are available in free agency, they are either washed up, tagged, or over-priced. I think he has addressed it fair enough, given our past season and its success. I am not sure what year it was, but it could be the year we drafted two pass rushers to address the problem. He addressed it, just not the way you wanted him to address it.

According to everything I found online, it was Brett Veach who traded up for Mahomes, not John Dorsey. Ballard was director of football operations in KC in 2015-2016 while Veach was co-director of player personnel.

GMs that are cautious don't trade first round picks for players, Ballard has done that twice in 7 drafts. It definitely worked with Buckner, and didn't work as hoped with Wentz, but you could see the logic. And there are definitely things Ballard has done in my opinion wrong or I wish he had done differently, like letting Wentz reach the snap threshold to lose the 1 or not drafting Montez Sweat at 26 when he fell to him, but the second one netted the Colts Pittman. Bottom line is he's pulled 3+ starters and many more contributors out of every draft class, that's production even Polian didn't have. If he stops doing that, the team will get worse and it will make sense to replace him. You don't replace that level of production at GM, however, unless you know the replacement will be as good or better at finding talent. I certainly wouldn't replace Ballard to end up with another Ryan Grigson.

You’ve turned my comment about the inexperience at DE during the wentz season into a critique of Ballard’s overall performance at DE. That’s not why I’ve made the comment several times. Dam keeps trying to say that trading for Wentz was Ballard going win now. I’m saying it wasn’t because he treated the rest of the roster the same. No sane GM would go into a win now season with the inexperience that team had at such a key position. Ironically it’s the one time I think Ballard’s approach is defensible.

As far as solving DE it’s obviously an area Ballard has struggled. He’s invested a lot of resources in it with mostly mediocre results. However it’s not something I specifically criticize him for. Hard position to fill and he’s attempted to - including using free agency. My only real criticism is being so cheap he lost Autry again essentially gifting the position to a rookie. Other than that, he’s just not had a major hit at the position. It happens.

I have no idea what you are searching for, but just google video of Dorsey selecting Mahomes. I’m on mobile and not going to add links. You can even check Dorsey’s wiki page as well. Dorsey was fired in June, after the draft. That’s probably where you are getting it wrong - the timing was unusual. Yes Veach was hired in 2017 but not until after the draft. Weird timing for a change for sure. Which is why I bring up Ballard’s comments about trading up for a QB and making the wrong decision would lead to him not being there the next year. A comment he’s made to the media more than once. Dorsey was pretty heavily criticized for the move. It isn’t officially the reason he was let go, but the timing of it was strange.

If I am remembering it right, Autry signed with Tennessee for the same money we offered.

And one thing you seem to forget is that every resource tat you use for one player has a domino effect on the resources you have for other players. It is highly likely that the resources needed to go get a stud pass rusher (if there was even one available at the time) may have cost us a different player. So, tell me who was available that off-season that you think Ballard should have gotten. It is easy to sit back and point a finger, but when you (collective you) do it, you never give names or scenarios that would have been possible.

I’m not sure how many times I have to say it, I’m not specifically criticizing Ballard for DE - simply pointing out it wasn’t win now.

Autry left pissed off because the colts under valued him and didn’t guarantee as much money as Titans did. He didn’t want to leave he left because Ballard was cheap. You want to know who the Colts should have signed at DE that offseason? Easy, Denico Autry. Yes, I’m sure to you it was impossible. He choose somewhere else and Ballard couldn’t possibly have handled it any differently they he did, right?

I don't think this is completely true.

From everything that I have read about the situation, the reason why Autry was pissed at the Colts was because they didn't extend him in season.

The Colts made in season extension offers to a select few players that year (Ryan Kelly and Grover Stewart) while they told Autry he needed to wait until the off season. Autry was pissed about that - not about the money offered. I am fairly certain that the Colts would have needed to better the Titans offer in order to smooth over Autry's hurt feelings.

Perhaps you feel that Autry should have been offered an in season extension just like Grover Stewart and Ryan Kelly. But I don't think it is good business practice to extend everyone in season either.

Quite the debate on our favorite topic. While I've walked back my criticism of Ballard this year I still get what rn is saying that a lot of you guys are missing. Yes, Ballard has made a couple of "win now" moves at QB and w/ Defo. But he's sat on cap space and tried to fill gaping holes at other critical positions through the draft rather than FA and by doing so has cost the team wins. Examples are:

2020 - We were woefully lacking in playmakers at the receiver positions. We had an aging Hilton, a rookie MPJ, and a bunch of JAGs.

2021 - As pointed out by rn our DE situation in '21 was a shit show, and we could have been much better off going the FA route than trying to fill via the draft where we ended up w/ a couple of projects (one coming off a serious injury). Also, we were once again woefully lacking in playmakers at receiver having only MPJ, an even older (and injury prone) Hilton, and a bunch of JAGs.

2022 - While it got better towards the end of the season our OL was a shit show for most of the season b/c of how Ballard handled the LT position and somewhat the ROG spot as well (although the coaching staff had their fair share to blame at ROG). Also, again a lack of pass rush at DE and lack of weapons at receiver.

2023 Obviously our CB situation was really bad. We were better at DE and receiver but we still need more there.

I alluded to it above, but the biggest name that sticks out to me is Trey Hendrickson, who was right there for the taking as a UFA in '21 and has been nothing but a stud for the Bungles since they signed him. To put it in perspective in the past 3 years Hendrickson has been 25-30% more productive than Paye and Dayo put together.

Another that sticks out is obviously the whole '22 LT shit show that we've beaten to death over past 2 years. The biggest head scratcher there is we probably could have just kept Fisher for what we gave Pryor, and maybe even less :confused:.


Anyway, to sum things up while I'm not as critical of Ballard as rn is, I do understand some of the points rn has been making and share in his concern that if/when the time comes and we're 1-2 players away that Ballard won't pull the trigger. Although hearing that we were outbidding the Texans for Hunter gives me hope that he will.

From Horseshoe Huddle article:

When it came time to revisit Autry's contract status in 2021 during free agency, the Colts were unwilling to match what he wanted, and that ultimately caused him to move elsewhere in the AFC South to the Tennessee Titans.

While both the Colts and Titans negotiated for Autry's services, he chose Tennessee's contract structure, which guaranteed him more during the first two years, over the Colts' offer. That really rubbed him the wrong way and his mission then became to punish the Colts twice a year.

"That makes it real personal," Autry told reporters upon signing in Tennessee. "(The Colts) knew what they had. It is what it is."


A stephen Holder tweet:

Stephen Holder
@HolderStephen
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Don't love the Colts' decision to let DL Denico Autry walk to Tennessee, but here's the skinny: The Colts, per NFL source, did try to match. Tennessee beat them out with their structure, which gave Autry more security in Year 2 of the deal. Important for a 30-year old player.
7:55 PM · Mar 15, 2021

And a colts wire article:

“It seems to come down to the structure of the contract.

This makes sense. The Colts like to front-load the contract of a veteran player. They get more guaranteed money up front while their production is still high but the Colts can cut bait when they need to later on. For the most part, it’s a win-win for both sides.

That said, some players like to have a bit more security down the road when it comes to the contract, and that seems to be the deciding factor for Autry at this point.”

Sports illustrated article:

"The Colts, per a source, were interested in extending their relationship with the soon-to-be 31-year-old lineman," Ayello said. "In fact, they made a strong late push to try and keep him away from their AFC South rivals, but the Titans ultimately were willing to commit more to Autry in the first two years of the deal than the Colts.

There are more if you need them. Regardless, it is pretty damn clear that Autry would have remained a Colt if Ballard had negotiated differently. Everything I sees says it was guarantees. Regardless, the binder spoke, Autry went to a division rival, and the Colts weren’t better for it (IMO of course). How his die hard fans spin that to make Ballard look like the hero is up to them.

I am not disagreeing that the Titans offered a little more guaranteed money vs the Colts - what I am saying is that the first thing that pissed Autry off was that he was not extended in season.

He felt slighted from the outset because he was not prioritized for an in season extension.

In other words, the negotiations got off on the wrong foot. And even if the Colts offer was identical - I think Autry still would have chose the Titans. On the other hand, if the Colts would have surpassed the Titans offer either in overall money or guaranteed money - then I think Autry would put his hurt feelings aside.

And yes, if Ballard would have negotiated differently and tried to extend him in season, I am sure the outcome would have been completely different.

They’re all different to me,

Polian- seemed like he had more control and didn’t have to get approval from Irsay or the head coach. He made his moves and that was that. It worked out but they had Manning so any one of us couldn’t have fucked that up.

Grigson- seemed to be Irsays buddy, Irsay wanted to take back control of his team after Polian and Manning were getting all the credit and it was essentially Irsay making all the moves Grigson was just the face of it. Yet there were still some good moves and those teams dominated the division.

Ballard- seems to work well with owner and coach seems to value their input and allow them to have critical selections when it comes to roster moves, I still believe he wanted to draft Love and was convinced into Wentz by Reich. Then I believe he wanted Fields and Irsay stepped in still believing they were in championship contention there’s no way Ballard wanted Matt Ryan. He prioritizes high character guys and I’ll never fault that these guys truly represent the team on and off the field well. I always felt like that’s why Autry wasn’t resigned he had character shit popping up while he was on the team. Bottom line, show up produce and represent well when you’re not on the field and you will be rewarded seems to be Ballards standard and I’m good with that.

The LT thing baffled me, too. I don't give Ballard a pass for that. I was a critical error. Fortunately, he admitted it was a mistake, and rectified it. People forget the guy is still learning how to GM, since this is his first gig. I think he has beaten the odds for a first time GM because he drafts well. He also knows how to keep a roster intact instead of losing guys every offseason to cap casualties. Can he improve? Of course. I think he also knows he needs to improve, based on some quotes I read from him about being better at his job.

I have nothing to back this up. But my suspicion is that Mahomes was an Andy Reid pick and that Dorsey fought him on it, and that's why he was fired.

As far as the biggest difference between the Ballard and the current Chiefs regime? I believe it's quite simple. Both teams are among the top drafting teams in the league and both have their share of misses or slow developers.
KC recognizes those misses and acts on them. Breeland Speeks doesn't work out, bring in Frank Clark. Mecole Hardman isn't progressing bring in an onslaught of WR's. Clyde Edwards Helaire can't stay on the field bring in an onslaught of RB's. Skyy Moore is proving to be worse than Alex Pierce, bring in more WR's.

Ballard's standard reasoning is always that if we don't play these young guys, how can we expect them to get better?

I say bring in competition and force them to get better (or not) while improving the team.

That's a fair assessment.

That's fair. He's definitely a good GM, but he needs to improve on his overall roster construction and filling holes to be considered a great GM IMO as his teams have been as a whole less than the sum of its parts. Granted some of that is due to the QB situation which has been mostly out of his control up until now.